Vegan Maven
 


Are Vegetarians Hypocrites Or Was I The Only One?

by Simon on November 6, 2009

Two Fried EggsWhen I was a kid growing up in a meat-eating household in England, we always had eggs and milk in our fridge.

Eggs were a regular feature of many of our family meals. Boiled eggs with bread “soldiers” for breakfast before school, fried eggs and bacon on weekends, fried egg and chips for supper, scrambled or poached egg on toast for snacks, eggs in our cakes, and so on.

I used to particularly look forward to the “double-yolkers” that my mum got from the local market… those unfeasibly large eggs with two, and sometimes three, yolks inside that looked like something an ostrich might have laid.

As for milk, I used to drink gallons of the stuff as well as having it on my breakfast cereal. On top of that, I ate copious amounts of cream, custard and milky puddings. Also, I cannot forget the thickly laden buttered toasts and teacakes. I consumed so much dairy as a kid, my parents thought I was going to start “mooing” (Needless to say that I didn’t “moo” but I did get lots of mucus, asthma and lots of stomach aches… conditions which have been linked to dairy consumption).

Leaving Home

When I left home and was at college, eggs and milk were always on my list when I went out shopping.  Not only did I enjoy the taste of eggs and milk, but I also wanted to stretch my meagre money supplies.

Even when I first chose to be vegetarian in my mid-twenties, nearly 18 years ago, I still ate eggs and drank milk. In fact, my intake of eggs and milk actually went up when I became an ovo-lacto-vegetarian. This was mainly because I was concerned about a lack of protein and calcium intake after removing all meat, poultry and fish from my diet.

The fact that I spent a high percentage of my leisure time smoking and drinking in pubs, at clubs or generally “getting wasted” with friends was not a health concern to me and demonstrates a voluntary myopic approach to my health at the time…  go figure that one! (This could be seen as an example of hypocrisy, but there’s a bigger one coming… read on!)

Going Veggie For a Bet

Let me be clear, I didn’t start my veggie journey as an “ethical vegetarian”. Nope!

I first became an ovo-lacto-vegetarian for a bet (the details of which are best reserved for another time), and after having stayed true to this “new diet” for a couple of weeks (under the terms of the aforementioned wager), I felt so much healthier.

And this was despite finding myself pretty regularly in situations where I would imbibe way too much alcohol, cigarettes and other substances than are good for any sane, self-respecting person.

When I was able to wake up without a hangover, have more energy than I had done for years and also think more clearly, I realized that I must be on to something. I was hooked with this new diet so from then on meat, poultry and fish were formally removed from my diet forever.

[Side note: I also stopped drinking alcohol a few years after becoming vegetarian while I still had some brain cells intact. That was nearly 12 years ago. And then the cigarette smoking stopped. Perfect, me? Hardly... I'm trying but a long way off yet!]

Hey Man, I Get The Ethics But Let Me Keep The Cheese!

Of course, you don’t embark on this kind of thing called vegetarianism without ultimately getting into the ethical side of things. I read bits and pieces here and there to fully convince myself that I had made the right choice from an ethical perspective as well as a health strategy.

So, when asked why I was a vegetarian, I meant it when I told people that I thought harming animals was ethically wrong.

I felt I was doing my bit for the animals… even though eggs and milk played a key part in my diet and I wore leather and wool clothing.

Over the years, my intake of milk and eggs massively reduced and I stopped buying leather products. I would still occasionally have a cafe latte at coffee shops and pre-made supermarket cakes that contained modified milk products or eggs. And, of course, I still ate pizzas because, like so many other vegans, I didn’t want to give up the cheese. It’s the addiction thing that the Skinny Bitch authors Rory Freedman and Kim Barnouin talk about:

All dairy products contain casein, but cheese has the highest concentration. In fact, cheese contains far more casein than is naturally found in cows’ milk. It also has phenylethylamine (PEA), an amphetamine-like chemical. So when we kid around and say, “I am addicted to cheese,” it’s not a joke – it’s true. We are chemically addicted to cheese.

The Fog Lifts

The day my wife and I, together with our children, gave up eating eggs and having milk in our diet (or even in our home), was the day when we all felt truly congruent in ourselves. It was like “coming home” to a part of us that we had been denying… possibly because in the communities we lived, the extended family relationships we were in, and the people we associated with, just being vegetarian was viewed as weird in itself. To be fully vegan was seen as a step too far by most other people.

Despite the social surroundings, it was so easy to “Go Vegan!” once we finally understood a few things that helped clarify our former clouded thinking.

The first thing was when we really understood the truth about the egg and dairy industries and the gross cruelty and injustices that takes place to hundreds of millions of chickens and cows just so we can have eggs and milk in our fridge.

Of course, I had previously “known” about factory farming and the cruelty that chickens and cows underwent… or at least I thought I did… so I had previously moved to predominantly free-range eggs and organic milk thinking that these would be in line with my ethics of animal welfare. Little did I know that terms such as “free-range” and “organic” can be very misleading and do not necessarily mean cruelty-free (and often don’t). (And, regardless of its living conditions, one fundamental result remains the same for the hen.. it has its egg taken away).

The other thing was that I also allowed “regular” milk and eggs into my diet via the ingredients in store-bought products and in restaurants and cafes (There’s that “voluntary myopia” in evidence again.)

Blind Ignorance

Looking back, I was like the one-eyed person in the kingdom of the blind who had an eye-patch over my “good eye” when it came to truly seeing the real world of egg and milk production. Despite being a vegetarian, I was still fairly ignorant of so many things. That changed when I watched a few videos that exposed the horrors of the egg and dairy industries.

I then felt like I had been a hypocrite in telling people that I was vegetarian because I supported animal rights.  By consuming eggs and dairy, how could I say I was against animal cruelty with any real integrity? I had to ask myself some serious questions.

Now, I could no longer hide behind my ignorance of what happens to the animals involved in egg and dairy production. To have eggs or dairy products in my diet would be to condone the ongoing cruelty depicted in these videos.

There is certainly no shortage of such behind-the-scenes shots of what happens in the egg and dairy industries with websites like PETA. “Meet Your Meat” (below) is just one example that highlights the cruelty and violence towards all kinds of factory farmed animals including the plight of hen-laying eggs and dairy cows.


Find out more at meat.org.

The Charges?

When it comes to charges of hypocrisy against vegetarians and my “former self”, perhaps I would do well to consider the words of Samuel Johnson in The Rambler:

Nothing is more unjust, however common, than to charge with hypocrisy him that expresses zeal for those virtues which he neglects to practice; since he may be sincerely convinced of the advantages of conquering his passions, without having yet obtained the victory, as a man may be confident of the advantages of a voyage, or a journey, without having courage or industry to undertake it, and may honestly recommend to others, those attempts which he neglects himself.

Maybe I am being too harsh. After all, was I simply ignorant of the facts and, therefore, cannot be blamed for acting on that ignorance?

And are most other ovo-lacto-vegetarians also simply “ignorant of the facts” and if they knew the real picture they would also become vegan?

In some cases this might happen as it happened to me and my family. However, in conversations I have with many ovo-lacto-vegetarians, it seems that veganism is just too difficult a stance to take for most of them. Too far out of their comfort zone when they take into account the negative responses they perceive will come back from most other people in their life; when they have to struggle to think about vegan alternatives to their staple vegetarian meals that often contain dairy and/or egg ingredients; and the challenges of foregoing leather and wool fashion items.

Do I sound judgmental? Probably, but I’m also just reporting back what I’m often told: “Going vegan would be too hard for me, right now?” And I wonder back, “When are you hoping it will it get easier?”

What Do YOU Think?

As a final point, take a look at the following slideshow which shows images captured by Animal Liberation Victoria (Australia) and Peaceful Prairie Sanctuary (USA) during investigations into the activities of the egg industry. It makes some powerful comments about the “myths behind cage-free eggs”.


One slide in the video is particularly worth repeating, especially for ovo-lacto-vegetarians who, like my former self, declare that they are opposed to animal cruelty yet still consume eggs. The slide states:

The truth of the matter is that each purchase of eggs, or the many processed foods that contain them, means more chickens brought into existence, more male chicks killed, and more laying hens exploited, exhausted, and slaughtered.

In the final analysis, we each make our own choices about what’s right or wrong. So, over to you for your comments. Are ovo-lacto-vegetarians, who claim to support animal rights, being hypocritical? Or am I just being divisive? What do you think?

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  • Tonya

    It is impossible to be a vegan in Paelothic times and being a vegan is really bad on the environment. Creating fake clothing and shoes do not evolve back into the earth like animal clothing. It is ridiculous to think that an animal is superior to you. I believe we need to treat animals with kind and great care in a loving and pristine environment. But we also need to recognize that we need them for our survival.

    I think ovo-lacto-vegetarians are hypocritical and posses a lack of knowledge as all commercial dairy farms are fed high amounts of grains. Grains are toxic and create e. coli in the animals guts. Grains are not a natural food for cows or goats. I think it is inhumane to feed an animal a diet of food that is not natural to their diet. Plus the way they treat commercial farm animals. Grass Fed and Raw Dairy is the only way to go! Just say NO to grains, grains fatten up pigs, cows, etc for slaughter just like they fatten you up right before you get a disease.

  • Edith

    I spent 4 years being ovo-lacto. The reason for that was that I was ignorant and refused to believe milk and eggs could harm any animal. Once I actually took the time to investigate I realized how much of a hypocrite I was.

    Although I appreciate vegetarianism since it is a step and better than being an omnivore, I do believe people who are all about “animal rights” and still vegetarians are hypocrites since animals still suffer and die for their food.

  • Schnapperdog

    I hate to inform you, but veganism contains more hypocrisy than vegetarianism. As an ex-vegan who is now educated properly on the food chain, I will point out that farming methods have a great impact on the final body count, and by that, I mean ALL the animals killed to produce food, even the animals killed to produce vegan food and products through collateral damage. I have nothing against veganism, but I do think it is wise not to throw stones lest one’s own windows are glass… and veganism does have glass windows.

  • Scg711

    i believe that to be a true animal lover and animal rights believer you have to be vegan, even if the animal isn’t abused (your own animals) you are still exploiting them by taking what is rightfully theirs. what a fantastic piece of information to hopefully open the eyes of not only meat eaters but vegetarians who believe they are doing their part for animals when in fact it just isn’t enough. peace and liberty to all animals

  • Christine rivers

    it takes a long time to get the information, understand it, process the information and make it fit into your experience of the world. Our cultures and societies are so pervasively mainstream and animal abusive – not to mention other abuses to ourselves and one another, and to imagine anything that even begins to deconstruct this pattern and overarching hatred would be to expect a child born and raised in a broom cupboard alone to speak and be human… it cant happen overnight because we dont know it exists and when we do – cant understand it.

    It has taken me 50 years and i always knew it was wrong to kill anything. I lived in a commune in the 70′s as a child because I was so different from my peers I had to run away. I was never afraid to speak up in defense of the different, the wounded. I always went my own way. Found the pleasures of being ethical and morally good – at an early age. one thing at a time was discovered and how it all fit together and slowly but surely I made my way to being a vegan and I am happy to be vegan.

    I understand how it is to eat meat and not know how not to…how to change, how to explain myself, what to eat, where to get the food, how to cook it, etc etc

    All people must change in their own time or not at all.

    We must be what we want to change and we are doing a fine job if we get to the vegan stage.

    I am trying to do other things now to help animals, to help people.

    The main purpose in life is to help others….

  • phist

    yes i believe if u wanna call yourself a true animal rights proponent, you shouldnt be an ovo-lacto-vegetarian…good article SImon!

  • Sudden

    If they consume dairy and egg products but no meat they are of course not hypocrites if they say they are ovo-lacto-vegetarians, because that is the official definition. To say “I’m a vegetarian” is to be something between an ovo-lacto-vegetarian and a vegan.

  • http://blog.wannabevegan.com/ Alisha

    Simon – what a great post! Thank you so much for sharing your journey and asking some very tough questions. I struggle with the same issues and have tried to find some answers. I think the quest for the answers is in itself a step in the right direction. I believe that as long as we are moving forward toward understanding our own role in the process and then acting on the answers we find, we are doing the right thing.

  • Christina_avery

    I’m now vegan, but it took me three years of being a vegetarian to get there. Part of me wishes that I would have been vegan immediately, but I honestly don’t feel that bad-it was just part of my journey. I always new that vegan was the end goal, but wanted to be successful with baby steps. Taking my time getting there meant I didn’t feel overwhelmed learning first how to cook without meat, but letting my family/friends get used to the change before I took out everything.

  • Elizabeth

    WOW!

  • dazzle59

    Excellent post, Simon – I too started out as an “ethical” ovo-lacto vegetarian and found myself agreeing with much you had to say!

  • Helyn

    I’m vegetarian but eat only eggs from my own hens in my garden. They are battery rescues and have a happy life now. I drink rice milk not cow milk, and buy organic cheese and butter which meets the top standards.

  • webfriend

    @Helyn: What are the top standards? Presumably the cows whose milk is taken from them (along with their calves) are still treated as milk machines and killed for ground beef at the end of their productive lifespans.

    @Schnapperdog: You presume that you have all the answers and that vegans do not understand the “food chain”, which is a profound assertion to make in this sort of space. While it is true that most forms of agriculture result indirectly in causing harm to free living animals, this sort of harm is not essential to vegan living, at least in the long term (veganic agriculture reduces this further, as does indoor vertical farming). Further, those animals killed by combines and such are quite different from animals killed expressly for food. They are not being bred and kept as property, which is the major harm caused to purpose-bred animals today. The harm grows even greater when when we think about the fact that more plant products must be grown (and thus more collateral damage occurs) to feed and later consume animal property rather than simply eat plants directly.

    @Tonya: What does the Paleolithic era have to do with how we live our lives right now? Nothing. As for whether it is bad on the environment, that is an absurd claim. There is plenty of scientific evidence to the contrary. Now, we must individually make better choices regardless of how we live, and that includes avoiding plastic packaging or clothing (plenty of alternatives exist) *as well as* leather products (which, in addition to the harm caused animals by leather production, are chemically treated and very bad for the environment).

    Also, where did you see that someone suggested that a nonhuman animal is *superior* to a human? Animal rights (as with any other form of rights) is about providing equal protection where our interests are similar. Animals–human and nonhuman–have an interest in not being used as mere resources, and we have *no* moral justification for treating those differences unequally. Period.

    Finally, where is your support for the claim that we need them for survival? Our species survived a very long time without using animals as property (just as they did without grains and other innovations that came about with agriculture some 10,000 years ago), and certainly can survive in the 21st century without relying on animal products, whether for food, clothing, or entertainment. There is a huge myth you’re perpetuating here, without bothering to add any fact in to support it.

  • Simon Allard

    Tonya, you might want to take a look at one of the other posts on this site http://veganmaven.com/blog/my-reasons-for-being-vegan-the-big-picture and watch the video. Also, I think you’d benefit from reading the response by “webfriend” to your comments.

  • Simon Allard

    Thanks for your comment, Edith. It seems you and I shared a similar route to realizing that veganism is more congruent with animal rights than ovo-lacto vegetarianism could ever be.

  • Simon Allard

    Thanks “Scg711″. If I understand you correctly, you’re referring to the issue of “animal ownership” in the form of “pets” and how this practice, by definition, is opposed to “true” animal rights. If that IS what you’re saying then I would have to agree.

  • Simon Allard

    You vividly spell out some of the challenges we face when we want to go against what are considered cultural norms. It’s great that you persevered in finding a way to live a life that feels “right” for you by becoming vegan. Your experience of knowing how difficult it can be for people to change, even when they want to, is a great asset to have. It’s great if you are now using that knowledge to help others find the courage to go against the “norm” and live in a non-abusive way. Thanks for sharing, Christine.

  • Simon Allard

    Thank phist.

  • Simon Allard

    My argument was not based on querying definitions. My point about “hypocrisy” was focused on people who profess to be in support of animal rights whilst continuing to consume dairy and eggs. To consume dairy and/or eggs actually helps to perpetuate the suffering of the animals in those industries rather than protecting their rights.

  • Simon Allard

    Thanks Alisha for highlighting how vital it is to accept personal responsibility for our actions and how that can be a real struggle at times. Your point about “the quest for the answers is in itself a step in the right direction” is spot on. The quality of our answers is largely dependent on the quality of the questions we ask ourselves. If we truly want to evolve as a person (or as a species), then we need to have the courage to ask ourselves challenging questions… and then rise up to that challenge by answering them. And it’s not for the faint hearted!

  • Simon Allard

    Hi Christina, it’s great that you reached your intended “end goal” in becoming vegan. The overwhelm of learning new stuff can be too much for some people and they give up. The more support we get from others who have trodden the path we want to go in, the better equipped we’ll be to overcome any hurdles along the way. Making changes is challenging but it can also be exhilarating… especially when we know that what we’re doing and where we’re heading is the right place for us to be. My advice to anyone who truly wants to make significant changes in their life is to enlist the support of others who have been there themselves.

  • Simon Allard

    Hi Elizabeth, that’s really short and sweet. I’d love to know what you found particularly “WOW!”.

  • Simon Allard

    Cheers “dazzle59″

  • Simon Allard

    I understand what you’re saying, Helyn but it probably won’t surprise you to hear me say that I don’t share your opinion.

    Organic cheese and butter stills comes from a cow and that cow is subject to exploitation regardless of the conditions it’s kept in. In another post on this site, I quote HumaneMyth.org where they describe the situation faced by ALL dairy cows:

    “All forms of dairy farming involve forcibly impregnating cows. This involves a person inserting his arm far into the cow’s rectum in order to position the uterus, and then forcing an instrument into her vagina. The restraining apparatus used is commonly called a ‘rape rack’.”

    That post highlights the ongoing, premeditated exploitation of the female reproductive system that occurs in all dairy farming and it doesn’t go away just because the end product is labeled as “organic”.

    You check out the rest of that post at http://veganmaven.com/blog/rape-abuse-and-murder-at-a-dairy-farm-near-you.

  • Simon Allard

    I’m curious why you are an “ex-vegan”. Are you saying that the education you gained lead you away from veganism? If so, maybe the “facts” you were given weren’t accurate. I’m interested in where you are getting your information from because you make some very bold statements without substantiating them with any research data.

    There is another post on this site that cites fairly extensive research into the subject you mention in your comments. You can find it at http://veganmaven.com/blog/animals-killed-by-vegan-diet.

    I wonder if you’d had access to this research data earlier, whether you would have stayed on the vegan path?

  • Simon Allard

    Hi “webfriend”, thanks for your thoughtful responses to the earlier comments. They are very much appreciated. Many blessings!

  • Marie

    What an insightful article. Thank you for posting it. I became a vegan last year after being a vegetarian since 1973. When I heard that male chicks are ground up alive that did it for me as far as eggs were concerned (gave up eggs in 2009). Then the whole factory farm sealed the deal for me. Even though I bought milk from free range cows and cheese that didn’t contain any rennet, animals were still being exploited and treated inhumanely. I never thought that I could be a vegan because I loved eggs, milk and cheese so much but now that I am, I feel better about myself as an animal lover. I was holding out with honey until I found out that bees were being killed because of the lower cost involved in replacing them.
    Any animal, from a gnat to a whale, deserves to live their lives without cruelty, torture, abuse, or fear of being killed. We are not superior to animals for they experience the same feelings of pain as we do.
    Thank you for your article and for being a compassionate person to those who cannot speak for themselves.

  • Simon Allard

    Hi Marie
    I’m really pleased you enjoyed the article and thanks very much for your kind words. I can totally relate to your journey to becoming vegan and the learning you gained along the way. I think many of us share a very similar story. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Anne-Hoesch/1612950636 Anne Hoesch

    i could not post any better comment here than webfriend has….excellent post!!….. in my view everyone has to choose their path and way of living for themselves, i believe that some people are more in tune with what is really going on in the world and the reality of the suffering involved and are therefore able to be more compassionate in thier views towards animals than some others may be, i have been vegetarian for over 20 years because i believe that animals have as much right to thier lives as we do and that thier lives are to them as important as ours are to us, i really believe that we are no more important to the scheme of things on this earth than the smallest ant on the ground, we co exist together, this has nothing to do with supiriority of one species over another. for me we have no right to kill other beings in order to “enrich” our own lives,this is simply an ethical and moral belief, i could no more eat meat than cut off my own leg!! as to the question of hypocrisy, yes, i do think that many vegetarians are hypocritical but without really being aware of it, if you truly believe that to kill is wrong then i dont think the critisism is justified because, as they say, rome wasnt built in a day and its a long learning process, some people just get there quicker than others.

  • Mike

    I agree with Simon. 100 years ago you could be lacto-ovo with a minimum impact on animals, but generally speaking not nowadays. I can see being lacto-ovo as perhaps being a necessary step down the path to veganism though. As representatives of the vegan lifestyle, it’s our duty (lol) to be as healthy as possible. To properly eat this way does take a bit of time and research. Besides, cows’ milk and eggs are certainly not health foods—just ask Dr. John McDougall.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1409532615 Lynn Wertman Goff

    Simon, I just loved your article! I was glued to it. You expressed so many feelings I have been having. I absolutely feel like a hypocrite. On one hand, I’m so thankful that my young children have bought into going mostly meat/dairy/egg free, but on the other hand, I can’t deny them when a friend offers them an oreo or mac and cheese (made from a processed box of goo, mixed with milk and butter). I turn the other cheek when we’re at a friend’s home… where they have so politely purchased a veggie pizza just for us (I try not to think about the egg that’s in the crust, or the cheese on top). I eat it. The idea of going vegan feels so right, but is so daunting. I hope some day to be strong enough to evolve to where you and your family are!

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1409532615 Lynn Wertman Goff

    I recently “read” a book called “You Don’t Need Meat” by Peter Cox. I say “read”, because it was so horrifying, I had to skim over much of it. Words like “organic” and “kosher” make people feel better when making “food” (whether it’s meat, or eggs, or dairy) selections… actually, they just make us not think. Any way you look at it, if a “product” (whether it’s food or clothing, or furniture) comes from an animal, that animal is being exploited, and probably lives(ed) in fear and pain. Right now, I’m at the point where it’s just too much for me to handle. Especially when it comes to eating out, or being a homes where we are guests. We’ve cut way back on processed foods, but it’s still everywhere and in everything. At this point, at best, I am a “flexitarian”. It’s all I can do right now. I’m so glad I found this site!

  • Simon Allard

    The thing about people who follow an ovo-lacto vegetarian diet is that, although meat isn’t consumed, the practice of consuming eggs and diary products means that they are still helping to perpetuate animal suffering.

    You’re right that “Rome wasn’t built in a day”, Anne. However, my belief is that once a person has actually decided to become vegan, then change can be made immediately. There are so many fantastic vegan information resources around today that if a person truly wants to become vegan then the info is fairly easy to find to support that change. Anyone who truly wants to be removed from the chain that perpetuates animal abuse and suffering in all its forms, needs to make immediate changes to their lifestyle if they don’t want to be left feeling hypocritical.

    It can be hard to change, I know, but that doesn’t mean that such changes cannot be made swiftly. However, there has to be a genuine will for this to happen and not everyone is truly willing to experience the temporary discomfort that sometimes follows such a change in lifestyle. If a person is genuine in their ethical stance towards animal rights, then I believe they’ll find the strength to make a quick change and there is plenty of support available within the vegan community. Thanks for your comment, Anne.

  • Simon Allard

    I’m glad you found my article useful, Lynn. I can relate to how you feel given the situation you describe. In my own family, having become vegan, we immediately resolved that we would not consume any animal products regardless of how other people reacted to us. We have consistently stuck to this principle ever since we first became vegan.

    Having young children, I know what it’s like to go to kids’ parties or friends’ homes and have the host offer non-vegan food. Our two youngest children are 5 and 7 years old respectively and they both always ask whether the food is vegan. More often than not this leads to a conversation about what “vegan” means. We have rarely had anyone become offended by our polite frankness about our lifestyle choices. One common reaction is to ask, “what do you eat, what can I get you/your kids instead?”

    I think a big issue in going vegan and being open about it is the fear of what “might” happen in social situations. “Fear” can be seen as an acronym for False Evidence Appearing Real. I my experience, the best/only way to counter this “fear” is to adopt the right mindset… one which is focused on WHY you are making this choice to be vegan and the virtues of that decision, rather than focusing on what you think other people “might” say/do.

    A lot of folks who are considering going vegan are more concerned about whether they will be accepted by their friends and family if they make the change to veganism. That’s when it’s important to have other avenues of moral and practical support available from people within the vegan community who have been there themselves. At the end of the day, it is a question of personal responsibility and accountability to hold true to your own values.

    Thanks for sharing, Lynn.

  • Simon Allard

    You’re right, Mike, research is increasingly showing us that there’s plenty of unpleasant aspects to eggs and cows’ milk. The latter is great for a calf, not so good for a human.

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